>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ARE DOING WELL IN VENEZUELA, RIGHT?

IT'S WORKING GOOD?

>> FOUR MONTHS AFTER THE UNITED STATES SNATCHED MADURO FROM THE VENEZUELAN PRESIDENCY, DOES THE COUNTRY HAVE A DEMOCRATIC FUTURE?

I ASKED EXILED LEADER AND NOBEL LAUREATES MARIA KARINA Machado.

THEN -- >> WE'VE NOT DONE WELL IN THE PROPAGANDA WAR.

>> AS ISRAEL STANDING WITH AMERICANS CONTINUES TO PLUMMET, I SPEAK WITH GENOCIDE SCHOLAR OMAR BARKOV ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, ISRAEL, WHAT WENT WRONG, AND WHY HE BELIEVES THE NATION IS FACING A MORAL AND POLITICAL RECKONING.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> UNEMPLOYMENT SHOT UP, PEOPLE ARE LAID OFF CONSTANTLY.

>> HOW THE FLOOD OF CHINESE IMPORTS RESHAPED AMERICA AND WHAT IT REVEALS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF GLOBAL TRADE.

VETERAN JOURNALIST BOB DAVIS JOINS US AHEAD OF TRUMP'S HIGH- STAKES SUMMIT IN BEIJING.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING TO WE'RE, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B POI TALK PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOW IN WARSAW, WHO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A LEADER DEPOSED.

A NEWLY CLIENT REGIME AND ENRICHED URANIUM SAFELY REMOVED FROM THE ACTUAL COUNTRY.

WHAT SOUNDS LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IDEAL ENDGAME FOR IRAN IS IN FACT ALREADY UNFOLDING IN VENEZUELA.

FOUR MONTHS AFTER THE U. S. INVADED CARACAS AND CAPTURED THE LEADER, NICOLAS MADURO, MAJOR OIL COMPANIES ARE WORKING TO INK PRODUCTION DEALS AS THE WHITE HOUSE PUSHES TO UNLOCK VENEZUELA'S VAST ENERGY RESERVES.

THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAS ANNOUNCED THAT IN FACT, ENRICHED URANIUM WAS REMOVED FROM THE COUNTRY AND FLOWN TO SOUTH CAROLINA.

ANOTHER SIGN THAT THE CLOSE TIES BEING FORGED BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND THE INTERIM PRESIDENT, DEL CITY RODRIGUEZ.

BUT AS TRUMP REVELS IN THIS NEW PARTNERSHIP, WHAT HAS BECOME OF THE PROMISE OF DEMOCRACY AND DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS?

IT'S A QUESTION ON THE MIND OF MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS, INCLUDING OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT.

THAT IS MARIA KARINA Machado, THE OPPOSITION LEADER IN EXILE.

AFTER A RISKY DEPARTURE TO ACCEPT HER NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LATE LAST YEAR, WHICH SHE PROMPTLY THEN GAVE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT MADURO'S TOP LIEUTENANTS, DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS IN CHARGE NOW SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE THE COUNTRY'S MOST VOCAL DEMOCRACY CAMPAIGNER ?

SHE JOINED ME FROM WASHINGTON.

MARIA CORINA Machado, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR PLANS.

I KNOW YOU'RE ON A BOOK CIRCUIT NOW.

YOU JUST COME OUT WITH YOUR NEW BOOK, FREEDOM MANIFESTO.

WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

YOUR DOING A BOOK TOUR OF THE U. S. BUT ON MARCH 1st YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING BACK VERY SHORTLY TO VENEZUELA.

THAT WAS SOME 10 WEEKS AGO.

YOU'RE NOT BACK.

DO YOU PLAN TO GO BACK?

>> YES I DO, CHRISTIANE.

WHEN I CAME OUT, I ESCAPED MY COUNTRY IN DECEMBER TO GO TO OSLO.

THE FIRST THING I SAID IS I AM PLANNING TO GO BACK AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

I HAVE A FEW OBJECTIVES TO ACCOMPLISH.

I'VE BEEN WORKING VERY HARD ON THOSE, TO REACH OUT TO PEOPLE, TO ALIGN ALL VECTORS FOR A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA, TO SHOW THE HUGE POTENTIAL THAT A FREE, DEMOCRATIC, PROSPEROUS VENEZUELA HAS, NOT ONLY FOR PEOPLE BUT FOR THE WHOLE HEMISPHERE, AND ALSO TO REACH OUT TO THOUSANDS OF VENEZUELANS IN OUR HUGE DIASPORA.

SO I'VE BEEN DOING THAT AND I PLAN TO GO SOON BACK.

>> SO YOU SAY SOON.

CAN I PIN YOU DOWN?

IS IT A WEEK FOR TWO WEEKS?

I'M ASKING BECAUSE THERE IS REPORTING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SUGGESTED WHEN YOU MET HIM THAT YOU DON'T GO BACK IT.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S CONCERNS ABOUT YOUR SAFETY, WHETHER IT'S CONCERNS ABOUT THE CURRENT WAY THAT VENEZUELA IS BEING RUN ALONGSIDE THE UNITED STATES, WITH DELCY RODRIGUEZ, THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT IN CHARGE.

DO YOU KNOW?

CAN YOU TELL ME WHY HE SUGGESTED THAT YOU SHOULDN'T GO BACK 2 >> TRULY WHEN I HAVE SPOKEN IN DETAIL ABOUT MY RETURN IS WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND THE REASONS THAT WE HAVE DISCUSSED SECURITY AND NOT ONLY MINE, I'M TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF POLITICAL LEADERS, SOCIAL LEADERS THAT HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE AND THAT ALSO WANT TO GO BACK TO A COMPANY THIS WILL OF OUR PEOPLE, OF THE NATION, THAT HAS PROVEN OUR DEMOCRATIC LOCATION AND ARE DECIDED TO MOVE AHEAD INTO TRANSITION, SO THAT DEMOCRACY, SO THAT WE CAN BRING OUR CHILDREN BACK HOME, WHICH IS THE LONG DESIRED, DESPERATE INTENTION OF MOTHERS HAVING OUR COUNTRY.

>> THE PRESIDENT APPEARS TO HAVE HIS OWN VERSION OF HOW VENEZUELA SHOULD BE RUN.

HE BELIEVES IT'S GOING VERY WELL WITH HIS CHOSEN, HAND- PICKED PERSON COOPERATING , DELCY RODRIGUEZ.

HE'S JUST LIFTED SANCTIONS FROM HER.

HE SAYS WE DID VENEZUELA INCREDIBLY WELL .

HE PRAISES DELCY RODRIGUEZ.

WE HAD A GREAT SITUATION GOING OVER THERE, WITH A WONDERFUL PRESIDENT, DEL CITY, AND SHE'S DOING A GREAT JOB, AND THEY'RE ALL DOING A GOOD JOB.

THAT'S PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AS YOU KNOW, MADURO'S REGIME IS PRETTY MUCH LARGELY INTACT.

DO YOU CONSIDER THIS SITUATION A GOOD JOB?

DO YOU CONSIDER IT PERMANENT OR INTERIM?

DO YOU CONSIDER IT NECESSARY FOR THE MOMENT, AS TRUMP APPARENTLY DOES, AND RUBIO?

>> I BELIEVE THERE ARE BEING VERY IMPORTANT STEPS TAKEN, CHRISTIANE.

FIRST OF ALL, STARTING TO DISMANTLE OUR REPRESSIVE REGIME THAT HAS COMMITTED CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THERE WERE OVER 1000 POLITICAL PRISONERS ON JANUARY 1st.

TODAY, MORE THAN 600 OF THEM HAVE BEEN RELEASED.

THERE ARE MANY THAT ARE STILL IN PRISON AND OTHER TRIALS CRIMES THAT ARE STILL BEING COMMITTED.

JUST THIS WEEK WE FOUND OUT THAT SOMEONE HIS MOTHER HAS BEEN LOOKING DESPERATELY FOR HIM BECAUSE HE WAS ABDUCTED ON JANUARY 1st, 2025, I MEAN 16 MONTHS AGO, WE JUST FOUND OUT THIS WEEK, AFTER SHE WENT FROM JAIL TO JAIL, HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL, AND IT WAS DENIED THAT HE WAS THERE, THAT THEY REGIME ACCEPTED, CONFESSED THAT HE HAD BEEN KILLED, DEAD, HE HAD BEEN DEAD SINCE JULY 2025.

I MEAN, NINE MONTHS AGO.

IMAGINE THIS, THE CYNICISM OF THIS REGIME THAT DENIED THE AMNESTY UNDER THE SO-CALLED AMNESTY LAW OF DELCY RODRIGUEZ, KNOWING THAT HE WAS ALREADY DEAD.

I MEAN THIS IS THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN VENEZUELA.

THIS ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS SIDE.

ON THE SOCIAL SIDE, YES, PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO SPEAK OUT.

FIRST IT WAS IN CHURCHES, THEN IN UNIVERSITIES.

FINALLY WE ARE SEEING TENS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE GOING OUT, ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY, SPEAKING OUT AND DENOUNCING THE HORRIBLE ECONOMIC SITUATION THAT VENEZUELANS LIVE IN RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN 86% OF OUR POPULATION IS IN POVERTY.

OUR CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOL ONLY TWICE A WEEK.

A TEACHER EARNS ONE DOLLAR A DAY.

I MEAN THIS IS HORRIFIC FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE, SOCIAL SITUATION, AND THESE TENSIONS ARE GROWING.

SO THERE'S HOPE THAT THIS PROCESS WILL MOVE ALONG AND WE TRUST WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE U. S. GOVERNMENT, THAT THIS IS A THREE STAGE PLAN AND THE THIRD PART OF IT IS AN ELECTORAL PROCESS WITH FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, SO WE CAN HAVE A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

>> DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT MARCO RUBIO SAID IN TERMS OF A DEADLINE FOR THESE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS?

HE BASICALLY SAID, ACCORDING TO THE NEW YORK TIMES, THAT HE WANTS TO SEE A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA BEFORE TRUMP LEAVES OFFICE IN 2029.

SO WE ARE TALKING THREE YEARS AT LEAST FROM NOW.

IS THAT THE TIMING THAT YOU WOULD AGREE TO?

>> WELL ACTUALLY THAT'S NOT THE TIMING THAT I'VE BEEN DISCUSSING WITH SECRETARY RUBIO OR OTHER OFFICIALS IN THE UNITED STATES.

ACTUALLY WHAT THEY HAVE SAID IS THAT THESE THREE PHASES ARE NOT SEQUENTIAL BUT THAT THEY CAN OVERLAPPED, THAT THE FIRST PHASE WAS ALREADY COMPLETED AND THAT ACTIONS ON THE THIRD AREA, WHICH IS THE DEMOCRATIZATION AND RE-INTERNATIONALIZATION OF VENEZUELA ARE ALREADY TAKING PLACE.

AND AT THE END, CHRISTIANE, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CHARACTERISTICS, THE CONDITION OF VENEZUELAN SOCIETY.

LOOK, WE ARE UNITED, COHESIVE SOCIETY.

I WOULD SAY LIKE NO OTHER IN THIS HEMISPHERE.

WE DO NOT HAVE RELIGIOUS, RACIAL, REGIONAL, SOCIAL OR POLITICAL FRACTURES.

90% OF OUR PEOPLE SAY WE WANT TO HAVE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, WE WANT TO HAVE DIGNITY, WE WANT TO HAVE FREEDOM , JUSTICE, BECAUSE WE WANT OUR FAMILIES REUNITING IN VENEZUELA.

REMEMBER, A THIRD OF VENEZUELAN POPULATION, ROUGHLY 9 MILLION HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE.

THEY WANT TO GO BACK.

WE WANT TO ENCOUNTER BUT ONLY IF THE CRIMINAL REGIME THAT ONCE FORCED THEM OUT IS DISMANTLED AND WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE CERTAINTY THAT WE CAN LIVE WITH JUSTICE, FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITY, WHICH IS, BY THE WAY, WHAT THE BIG INVESTORS ALSO LOOK FOR.

THEY WANT RULE OF LAW.

VENEZUELA IS CURRENTLY IN THE LAST PLACE GLOBALLY, BY THE WORLD JUSTICE PROJECT, WHICH RANKS 143 COUNTRIES GLOBALLY, VENEZUELA IS IN THE 143rd PLACE RIGHT NOW SO TO HAVE LONG- LASTING AND HUGE INVESTMENTS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF VENEZUELA, HUGE POTENTIAL IN OIL, GAS, ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, MINERALS, RARE EARTH AND SO ON, YOU HAVE TO HAVE RULE OF LAW'S AND A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK THAT IS PREDICTABLE AND SUSTAINABLE LAND THAT CAN ONLY HAPPEN AFTER WE HAVE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS.

>> SO I NEED TO PRESS YOU ON THIS, THEN.

IS 2029 TOO LATE?

WHEN DO YOU WANT TO SEE ELECTIONS?

AND SECONDLY, YOU TALKED ABOUT ALL OF THIS CAN ONLY HAPPEN WHEN THE CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE MADURO REGIME IS GONE.

DO YOU INCLUDE DELCY RODRIGUEZ IN THAT DESCRIPTION OR DO YOU ACCEPT HER AS A TRANSITIONAL FIGURE?

>> WELL REGARDING TO YOUR LAST QUESTION, WE HAD OFFERED PRIVATELY AND PUBLICLY OUR WILLINGNESS TO HAVE A NEGOTIATED TRANSITION IN WHICH INCENTIVES AND GUARANTEES ARE GIVEN TO THOSE THAT FACILITATE THIS PROCESS.

THE WIDE MAJORITY OF THE VENEZUELANS THAT I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE REGIME, THEY DID IT FOR FEAR, AND WE HAVE OPENED OUR ARMS AND GIVEN THEM THE SECURITY THAT THEY WILL BE PART OF THIS RECOVERY OF VENEZUELA.

THIS IS NOT REVENGE.

WE WILL NOT DO TO THEM WHAT THEY DID TO US.

WE WILL GUARANTEE THEY WILL HAVE SAFEGUARDS AND RIGHTS RESPECTED BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN 90% OF THE PEOPLE IT IS DETERMINED TO BE FREE, A NATION THAT HAS A SINGLE PURPOSE, THAT IS ORGANIZED, THAT HAS SUCH A DEMOCRATIC CULTURE AND HISTORY AS VENEZUELA HAS, WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP.

WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER.

VENEZUELA WILL BE FREE.

>> YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION ABOUT ELSIE RODRIGUEZ.

I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT INDUSTRY AND ALL THE REST.

IS SHE, ACCORDING TO YOU, THE ACCEPTABLE TRANSITIONAL FIGURE?

>> SHE WILL HAVE INCENTIVES AND I THINK IT'S HER LAST OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO BE RECOGNIZED AS A FIGURE THAT HELPED A PEACEFUL AND ORDERED TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA.

SHE HAS AN OPPORTUNITY, AS THE ARMED FORCES, MORE THAN 80% OF THEIR MEMBERS ALSO WANT TO TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY SOON.

AND REGARDING THE TIMING, VENEZUELAN PEOPLE WANT ELECTIONS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

FROM A TECHNICAL PERSPECTIVE, IT REQUIRES BETWEEN SEVEN AND NINE MONTHS, ONCE YOU TAKE THE POLITICAL DECISION TO MOVE FORWARD , NAMING A NEW ELECTORAL COUNSEL.

THAT'S THE STEP THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> OKAY, SO I'M HEARING FROM YOU THAT THE BENCHMARK OF 2029 IS TOO LONG.

SO THE NEXT QUESTION THEN IS, ARE YOU --I KNOW THAT YOU AND YOUR PARTY, YOUR PARTY WON THE LAST ELECTIONS, ACCORDING TO ALL INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN ELECTION WORKERS, ACCORDING TO ALL THE FIGURES THAT BROADCAST THE MADURO REGIME STILL THAT ELECTION.

REMEMBER DELCY RODRIGUEZ WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT AT THAT TIME.

ARE YOU CLAIMING POSITION AS LEADING OPPOSITION FIGURE OR IS THERE LEOPOLDO LOOP HAS, IS THERE EDWARD MARTINEZ, WHO BY THE WAY WAS TRUMP'S GUEST AT THE STATE OF THE UNION?

ARE YOU ALSO COMPETING FOR THE MANTLE OF OPPOSITION LEADER?

>> VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION IS TODAY MORE UNITED THAN EVER AND IT IS BECAUSE THESE POLITICAL PARTIES.

THIS HAS TURNED INTO A SOCIAL MOVEMENT.

I WON THE PRIMARIES WITH 92% OF THE VOTE.

MADURO WAS AFRAID TO RUN AGAINST ME AND BANNED ME, AND EVEN SO, WE WON THE ELECTION WITH OVER 70% OF THE VOTE, AND WE PROVED IT.

AND I WANT TO INSIST ON THIS ISSUE THAT YOU JUST HIGHLIGHTED, BECAUSE PERHAPS OTHER DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENTS WHICH HAVE STUCK TO THAT RESULT AND SAY THAT IT HAD TO BE ENFORCED IN THAT SHOW OF TRUST IN OUR PEOPLE AND OUR WILLINGNESS TO HELP THE U. S. GOVERNMENT PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD, WE HAVE ACCEPTED TO RECOGNIZE THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND PARTICIPATE IN NEW ELECTIONS, IN WHICH I BELIEVE ANYBODY, ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO BE A CANDIDATE SHOULD RUN AND HAVE THE PEOPLE DECIDE.

THAT'S WHY OUR CONSTITUTION SAID, THAT'S WHAT OUR PEOPLE DESERVE, THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE GAINED WITH 27 LONG YEARS OF SUFFERING, BUT THAT HAS BROUGHT OUR COUNTRY CLOSER TOGETHER AND THAT'S WHY I INSIST THIS MOVEMENT IS UNSTOPPABLE.

VENEZUELA WILL BE FREE.

>> AND FINALLY, TELL ME ABOUT THE FREEDOM MANIFESTO, THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

IF YOU CAN GIVE ME A COUPLE OF BULLET POINTS, YOUR MAIN MANIFESTO PROMISE.

>> WELL THANK YOU FOR THIS.

THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY TESTAMENT OF VOICES, OF MOTHERS, SONS, BROTHERS, COUPLES THAT HAVE BEEN SEPARATED, THAT HAVE BEEN HUMILIATED BUT THAT HAVE RISEN WITH DIGNITY, WITH COURAGE, WITH RESILIENCE.

THIS IS THE VOICES OF MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS THAT WANT TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT YOU CAN CONFRONT A CRUEL TYRANNY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, FROM WITHIN THE NATION, YOU CAN HAVE THE FORCE OF THE PEOPLE AND EXTRAORDINARY THINGS LIKE THAT CAN ACCOMPLISH.

THEY TOLD US IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE AHEAD, TO BRING THE COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER, TO DEFEAT MADURO AND NOW TO MOVE AHEAD INTO THE TRANSITION.

WE HAVE MADE POSSIBLE WHAT THEY SAY IS IMPOSSIBLE AND ONCE AGAIN, THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE WILL DO IT.

THAT'S THE SPIRIT AND THE PROTAGONIST OF THIS STORY ARE THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT THE FREEDOM MANIFESTO SHOWS THE WORLD.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A CHEEKY QUESTION, THEN.

WAS IT WORTH GIVING YOUR NOBEL PRIZE MEDAL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> THE ANSWER IS YES, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT VENEZUELA WILL BE FREE AND BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE ONLY HEAD OF STATE THAT HAS RISKED THE LIVES OF SOME OF HIS CITIZENS FOR THE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN MY COUNTRY.

>> MARIA CORINA Machado, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

MY PLEASURE.

> >> AND JUST LIKE THAT, SHORTLY AFTER OUR INTERVIEW, AFTER EXTOLLING THE VIRTUES OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, A POST BY FOX NEWS'S JOHN ROBERTS CLAIMS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS, QUOTE, SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING A MOVE TO MAKE VENEZUELA THE 51st STATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

NOW, SINCE THE START OF THE JOINT WAR AGAINST IRAN, AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL HAS FALLEN 60% OF AMERICANS NOW HOLD A NEGATIVE VIEW OF ISRAEL.

FOR ISRAELIS, GROWING CONCERN THAT ONE OF THEIR KEY STRATEGIC ASSETS, AMERICAN SUPPORT, IS DWINDLING AWAY, AND WITH AN ELECTION LOOMING, PRESSURE IS MOUNTING ON PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, WHO HAS BLAMED SOCIAL MEDIA FOR THE SHIFT IN PUBLIC OPINION.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> IN WAR, ARMIES SOMETIMES MISS AND CIVILIANS DIE , AND THESE ARE MISTAKES.

THESE ARE NOT DELIBERATE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

ISRAEL IS BESIEGED ON THE MEDIA FRONT, ON THE PROPAGANDA FRONT, AND WE'VE NOT DONE WELL ON THE PROPAGANDA WAR .

>> BUT IS IT REALLY JUST A MESSAGING PROBLEM?

IN HIS NEW BOOK, ISRAEL, WHAT WENT WRONG, OMER BARTOV TRACES ISRAEL'S PRESENT CRISIS BACK TO THE TENSIONS AND DECISIONS ROOTED IN ITS FOUNDING.

HE WAS BORN ON A KIBBUTZ IN ISRAEL AND HE WAS RAISED IN A ZIONIST HOUSEHOLD, AND SERVED FOUR YEARS IN THE IDF.

HE'S NOW ONE OF THE LEADING SCHOLARS OF HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE STUDIES AND HE CAUSED CONTROVERSY WHEN HE DECLARED ISRAEL IS IN FACT COMMITTING GENOCIDE IN GAZA.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM MASSACHUSETTS.

PROFESSOR OMER BARTOV, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANKS VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

NICE TO BE AGAIN WITH YOU.

>> YES, SO WE ARE CONTINUING A VERY POIGNANT AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.

WE'VE SPOKEN SEVERAL TIMES OVER THIS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION SO LET ME FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, ISRAEL, WHAT WENT WRONG.

IT'S A PRETTY PROVOCATIVE TITLE.

>> YES.

PEOPLE HAVE RESPONDED IN VARIOUS WAYS TO IT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY NOTHING WENT WRONG, SOME PEOPLE SAY IT WAS ALWAYS WRONG OR I AM WRONG, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO TRACE IN THE BOOK IS REALLY THE QUESTION OF HOW DID ZIONISM, WHICH WAS A MOVEMENT THAT BEGAN IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY, INTENDED TO LIBERATE, EMANCIPATE WHO WERE LIVING IN EAST CENTRAL EUROPE, WHO WERE BEING PERSECUTED AND SELECTED TO MORE AND MORE VIOLENCE, AND TO CREATE SOMETHING, A BETTER LIVING ENVIRONMENT FOR JEWS, HOW THAT MOVEMENT WAS TRANSFORMED INTO A STATE IDEOLOGY THAT INCREASINGLY SUPPORTED MILITARISM, EXPANSIONISM, BECAME INCREASINGLY RACIST AND SINCE OCTOBER 2023, HAS ALSO SUPPORTED GENOCIDE.

THAT'S THE SORT OF TRAGIC TRANSFORMATION THAT MY BOOK TRIES TO TRACE.

>> YOU SAY , YOU SUM UP AS WHETHER IT HAS MOVED FROM THAT PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY BASED ON JUSTICE TO A STATE IDEOLOGY OF F NO NATIONALISM.

NOW LOOK, I WANT TO BRING UP THE GENOCIDE ISSUE BECAUSE -- AND THEN WE'LL GO BACK TO YOUR BOOK ON THE TRANSFORMATION IN ZIONISM, BECAUSE THIS COST A LOT OF CONTROVERSY.

WE SPOKE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A LEADING GENOCIDE AND HOLOCAUST STUDIES PROFESSOR AND YOUR AT BROWN UNIVERSITY.

AT FIRST, BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 2023, SHORTLY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, YOU WROTE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, WARNING THAT WHILE GENOCIDE IS NOT TAKING PLACE IN GAZA, THINGS WILL GET WORSE.

HERE IS WHAT YOU TOLD ME THEN.

>> I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT RIGHT NOW THERE IS INTENTIONAL KILLING OF CIVILIANS, BUT THERE IS TOTALLY DISPROPORTIONATE KILLING OF CIVILIANS, DISPROPORTIONATE IN A RELATIONSHIP TO GOOD MILITARY GOALS DECLARED BY ISRAEL ITSELF.

SO IN THAT SENSE I THINK WE ARE CLOSE BUT WE ARE NOT THERE YET.

>> AND PROFESSOR BARKOV, YOU FOLLOWED UP WITH A SECOND OP-ED SAYING THAT WE ARE IN FACT THERE YET AND I TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THAT.

HERE IS WHAT YOU SAY IN YOUR SECOND GO-ROUND ON THIS ISSUE.

>> THERE IS NO REAL RESISTANCE ANYMORE .

THE QUESTION IS, THEN, WHAT IS THIS FOR ABOUT?

WHAT IS IT TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

AND ON THE GROUND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IS IT'S ACTUALLY A WAR OF ANNIHILATION OF THE ENTIRE GAZA STRIP.

>> SO YOU'VE SEEN THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE COME TO THAT PERSPECTIVE, EVEN MANY VERY DISTINGUISHED ISRAELIS.

WHAT WERE YOU --WHO WERE YOU TRYING TO ADDRESS THERE?

WHO WERE YOU TRYING TO TALK TO WITH THOSE STATEMENTS?

>> SO YEAH, LET ME SAY THAT I RETRACE THESE DEBATES ALSO IN THE BOOK AND I TRIED TO EXPLAIN HOW I CHANGE MY POSITION OVER TIME.

WHEN I PUBLISHED THAT OP-ED IN THE NEW YORK TIMES IN EARLY NOVEMBER 2023, I WAS HOPING THAT SOMEONE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AT THE TIME WOULD LISTEN, BECAUSE AS I WROTE THERE, THERE WERE BOTH CLEAR SIGNS THERE HAD BEEN WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

ABOUT 10,000 CIVILIANS HAD BEEN KILLED ALREADY, THEN.

IN THE FIRST FOUR WEEKS OF THE CAMPAIGN IN GAZA.

I WAS HOPING THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WOULD LISTEN, BECAUSE WE ALL KNEW AT THE TIME THAT IF THE U. S. DECIDED TO TELL NETANYAHU YOU HAVE TWO WEEKS TO WRAP THIS UP AND IF YOU DON'T, THEN YOU'LL BE ON YOUR OWN, MEANING WE WON'T SUPPLY YOU EITHER WITH MILITARY HARDWARE OR WITH THE MEDIC SUPPORT , THEN ISRAEL WOULD'VE STOPPED, AS IT DID EVENTUALLY WHEN TRUMP TOLD IT TO STOP.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T LISTEN.

WE COULD'VE BEEN AT A POINT WHERE WE WOULD'VE SAID, YES THERE WERE WAR CRIMES, THERE WAS IMMENSE VIOLENCE, IT ALMOST BECAME GENOCIDE BUT IT DIDN'T.

AND BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION DID NOT PUT ITS FOOT DOWN AND ALLOWED ISRAEL TO CONTINUE, BY THE SPRING OF 2024 IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE STATEMENTS THAT HAD BEEN MADE BY ISRAELI POLITICIANS AND GENERALS RIGHT AFTER OCTOBER 7th, WHICH HAD A GENOCIDAL CONTENT, WERE NOT ONLY MADE IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT, BUT WERE ACTUALLY PART OF WHAT WE SAW LATER ON WAS A PATTERN OF OPERATIONS BY THE IDF IN GAZA INTENDED TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ENTIRE STRIP.

BECAUSE THAT FAILED, BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS HAD NO PLACE TO RUN THROUGH, THE EGYPTIAN BORDER WAS CLOSED AND OBVIOUSLY ISRAEL'S BORDERS WERE CLOSED, THAT ATTEMPT AT ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH FAILED TURNED INTO A GENOCIDAL OPERATION.

THIS WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO WARN ABOUT.

I WROTE ABOUT IT THEN IN THE SUMMER OF 2024 AND REPEATED THAT IN JULY OF 2015.

>> INSTEAD, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SANCTIONED THE ICCS FOR ATTEMPTING TO HOLD BOTH ISRAELI OFFICIALS AND HAMAS OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT HAD HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th AND ON THE ENSUING WAR ON GAZA.

SO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SANCTIONED IT.

NOW YOU HEAR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, WHO'S NEVER BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE, UNLIKE MANY, MANY OTHER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS, AFTER ALL THE WARS THAT HAVE BEEN FOUGHT, THEY'VE ALL HAD TO ANSWER TO A REVIEW, HE'S NOW TELLING AMERICAN TELEVISION THAT ACTUALLY, AT LEAST IN THE CLIP THAT WE JUST PLAYED, THAT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAVE A PROPAGANDA PROBLEM, THAT WE ARE VICTIMS OF THIS LACK OF SUPPORT NOW, OR THIS DROPPING SUPPORT IN THE UNITED STATES FOR ISRAEL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF NETANYAHU'S JUSTIFICATION FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY OF YOUR GREATEST SUPPORT?

>> WILL WHAT IS EXTRAORDINARY IS FIRST OF ALL, THAT NETANYAHU, WHO WAS THE HEAD OF GOVERNMENT DURING THE FIASCO OF OCTOBER 7th, AND WE KNOW NOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MILITARY HAD ALL THE INFORMATION ABOUT AN ATTACK THAT WAS GOING TO COME FROM HAMAS AND HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT, THAT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO COMPLETELY SERVE FOUR YEARS AS PRIME MINISTER, NEVER EVEN THINKING OF RESIGNING AND SHAME.

HE IS TRYING NOW AND HE'S SPEAKING ONLY TO THE AMERICAN MEDIA.

HE HARDLY EVER SPEAKS TO THE ISRAELI MEDIA.

HE'S TRYING NOW TO FOOL PEOPLE AGAIN IN TWO SAYING, WELL, SOME MISTAKES ARE MADE.

IN WAR THINGS HAPPEN, WHEREAS IN FACT WE KNOW THAT THERE WAS A PLAN ABOUT WHICH HE SPOKE ON VARIOUS OCCASIONS, TO EMPTY THE GAZA STRIP OF ITS POPULATION.

WE KNOW THAT NETANYAHU SAID, FOR INSTANCE, AND THAT WAS ABOUT A YEAR AGO, HE SAID WE HAVE --THEY CANNOT GO BACK TO THEIR HOMES, THEY MEANING THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, BECAUSE ISRAEL DESTROYED THEIR HOMES AND OUR ONLY PROBLEM IS TO FIND COUNTRIES THAT WILL TAKE THEM IN.

OF COURSE THAT PROBLEM HAS NOT BEEN RESOLVED.

NO ONE WILL TAKE THEM IN AND THEREFORE THEY'RE LIVING IN HORRIFYING CONDITION NOW.

IN LESS OF HAVE THE TERRITORY OF WHAT HAD BEEN ONE OF THE MOST CONGESTED PLACES IN THE WORLD BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

SO YES, HE'S LYING BUT HE HAS BEEN DOING THAT AS PART OF HIS CAREER.

>> AND OF COURSE, WE CAN'T GO IN AND ACTUALLY FACT CHECK AND TELL THE TRUTH BECAUSE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO ALLOW ANY INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS STILL INTO GAZA, EVEN AFTER A SO-CALLED CEASE- FIRE.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE AS I SAID, YOU WERE BORN TO A ZIONIST FAMILY, YOU BELIEVED IN THIS.

YOU TOLD US YOUR REASONS FOR THINKING HAS MOVED AWAY FROM THE INITIAL PROMISE BUT YOU WERE ALSO IN THE IDF.

YOU SERVED IN GAZA IN THE 1970S AND YOU WRITE, EVEN THEN, IT WAS A BAD PLACE.

350,000 PEOPLE, HOPELESS AND SAD.

WELL TODAY THERE ARE JUST OVER 2 MILLION PEOPLE, MORE THAN HOPELESS AND SAD, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE HORRENDOUS LEADERSHIP OF HAMAS THAT HAS LED THEM DOWN THIS ROAD TO TOTAL PERDITION.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU AS A YOUNG SOLDIER AND DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT WAS GOING TO COME?

>> LOOK, I WAS VERY YOUNG AT THE TIME.

I THINK I WAS 19 OR 20.

I SERVED FOR ABOUT A YEAR AROUND GAZA.

MY BATTALION COMMAND WAS IN GAZA.

I WAS SERVING NORTHERN SINAI SO I WAS THERE, I SERVED AS AN OCCUPATION SOLDIER, AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK, AND I DID HAVE THAT VERY DIFFICULT FEELING OF BEING AN OCCUPATION SOLDIER, NOT KNOWING WHY I WAS THERE, AND FEELING THE GAZES OF THE POPULATION ON ME THROUGH SHATTERED WINDOWS.

BUT DID I KNOW ?

DID I ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND?

NO, OF COURSE, I WAS TOO YOUNG AND I'VE BEEN VERY WELL SOCIALIZED INTO ISRAELI SOCIETY.

I WILL SAY THAT EVEN BEFORE I WENT TO THE MILITARY, SO AS A 17-YEAR-OLD, WE USED TO DEMONSTRATE AGAINST THE OCCUPATION AND THE OCCUPATION THEN WAS VERY YOUNG.

THIS WAS IN 1970, 71, THE OCCUPATION BEGAN IN 1967 AND WE CARRIED POSTERS SAYING OCCUPATION CORRUPTS AND WE PICKED UP THAT SLOGAN SOMEPLACE, AND WE HAD NO IDEA HOW LONG THAT OCCUPATION WOULD LAST AND HOW DEEPLY IT WOULD CORRUPT ISRAELI SOCIETY.

SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU SEE TODAY , THE INDIFFERENCE OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION, THE VAST MAJORITY --I'M NOT TALKING ONLY ABOUT THE FAR RIGHT OR THE SUPPORTERS OF THE GOVERNMENT BUT MANY SUPPORTERS OF THE OPPOSITION ARE INDIFFERENT TO WHAT HAPPENED TO PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

THIS MIX OF INDIFFERENCE AND DENIAL, IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF DECADES OF OCCUPATION WHICH LED TO DEHUMANIZATION OF PALESTINIANS AND IN TURN LED TO DEHUMANIZATION OF ISRAELIS VIS- À-VIS PALESTINIANS, THINKING OF THEM AS THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE AT THE TIME, YOU OF GALLANTS THAT IMMEDIATELY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THEY ARE HUMAN ANIMALS AND WE WILL TREAT THEM AS SUCH.

THAT IS A SENSE THAT WAS SHARED BY LARGE PARTS OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION AND REMAINED SO TO THIS DAY AS A RESULT OF THIS DECADES LONG, INCREASING OPPRESSIVE AND BRUTAL OCCUPATION.

>> YOU KNOW YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK AND TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS THINK, AS YOU JUST LAID OUT.

YOUR BOOK HAS NOT BEEN SOLD IN ISRAEL, NOR TRANSLATED INTO HEBREW, AND THERE'S SUCH A HUGE, COLOSSAL INTELLECTUAL, SPIRITUAL, RELIGIOUS, POLITICAL WAR BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND THE DIASPORA, ON THESE VARIOUS ISSUES.

I'VE HEARD FAMILIES WHO CAN'T TALK TO EACH OTHER ANYMORE, WHO HAVE TO BELIEVE ONE THING, HALF BELIEVE THE OTHER THING.

YOU MUST HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU WERE GOING AGAINST YOUR OWN TRIBE, THAT YOU WOULD PROBABLY FACE A HUGE AMOUNTS OF BLOWBACK AND PUSHBACK.

YOU'RE NOT EVEN PUBLISHED IN THE HOMELAND OF YOUR BIRTH.

>> YES, I DON'T LIKE TO THINK OF MYSELF AS A MEMBER OF A TRIBE.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, RIGHT?

IT'S A POLITICAL TERM OF ART.

>> YES I DO.

I KNOW.

I JUST HAVE ALWAYS RESISTED IT FOR MOST OF MY LIFE AND I WON'T CHANGE NOW.

BUT I AM AN ISRAELI.

I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT THAT COUNTRY.

I CARE ABOUT IT.

I STILL THINK, I HAVE VERY GOOD FRIENDS THERE, ALTHOUGH AFTER THE PAST TWO YEARS MAYBE I HAVE SOME FEWER FRIENDS, AND I CARE ABOUT ITS FUTURE.

I DID WANT THE BOOK TO COME OUT IN HEBREW.

I HAVE WRITTEN TO MANY PUBLISHERS AND IT'S REALLY CLEARLY LEFT-WING PUBLISHERS AND NONE OF THEM HAS EITHER DARED OR WANTED TO PUBLISH THE BOOK BUT THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW WITH ME THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN HA'ARETZ A FEW DAYS AGO, FIRST IN ENGLISH AND 10 DAYS LATER, ALSO IN HEBREW.

AND MANY PEOPLE WERE APPALLED BY WHAT I SAID BECAUSE I SAID THAT I THOUGHT THAT ZIONISM HAD BECOME A STATE IDEOLOGY THAT MUST BE DISCARDED, THAT MUST BE DONE AWAY WITH, THAT HAS BECOME RACIST AND JEWISH SUPREMACIST, VIOLENT AND NOW GENOCIDAL, AND THE STATE HAS TO REMAKE ITSELF.

AND HAS TO FIND A WAY OF BEING A DIFFERENT STATE, A STATE FOR ALL ITS CITIZENS AND A STATE THAT WILL KNOW HOW TO SHARE THE SPACE THAT IT CONTROLS, BETWEEN JEWS AND PALESTINIANS.

BUT NOT EVERYONE WAS AGAINST THAT.

THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE ME AND I WISH THAT MORE PEOPLE SPOKE OUT, NOT IN ORDER SIMPLY TO CONDEMN, BECAUSE CONDEMNING IS EASY, BUT TO TRY TO TRACE THE ROOTS OF HOW WE GOT THERE AND TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THAT, THE STORY, THAT'S WHAT I DO, TO SEE WHERE WE WENT WRONG AND HOW THINGS CAN BE FIXED.

>> OKAY, LET ME JUST ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION.

WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

DO YOU THINK ONE OF THE THINGS, YOU WRITE, WHERE DID IT GO WRONG, IS THEY NEVER, EVER TALKED ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND THE KNOCKABOUT.

IT WAS NEVER INTERTWINED IN TERMS OF THE ORIGIN STORIES OF BOTH PEOPLE.

DO YOU THINK IF THAT HAD BEEN MORE TOLD, IT MIGHT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE, OR NOT?

>> YES.

I MEAN A MAJOR POINT, THE CRUCIAL MOMENT IS OF 1948.

1948 IS THE YEAR IN WHICH THE STATE WAS ESTABLISHED.

1948 IS THE YEAR IN WHICH THE VAST MAJORITY OF POPULATION OF THE PALESTINIAN WERE KICKED OUT, THE NAQBA.

1948 IS ALSO THE YEAR IN WHICH THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION WAS ENDORSED WITH STRONG SUPPORT FROM ISRAEL AT THE TIME.

SO FACING UP TO THE PAST, FACING UP TO THE WRONGS OF THE PAST SHALL IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD, I AGREE, BUT THE HOLOCAUST BECAME IN ISRAEL ALSO SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT FROM SIMPLY A MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT EVERYONE HAS TO COMMEMORATE AND RESEARCH, WHICH I HAVE DONE FOR MOST OF MY CAREER, IT HAS BECOME A POLITICAL TOOL FROM THE 1980S ON, WHICH HAS GIVEN LICENSE TO ISRAELIS TO SAY THAT ANY RESISTANCE TO THEM -- AND RESISTANCE COMES FROM THOSE THAT YOU OCCUPY AND OPPRESS, BRINGS WITH IT THE DANGER OF ANOTHER EXTINCTION, OF ANOTHER HOLOCAUST, AND THEREFORE THOSE RESISTORS HAVE TO BE WIPED OUT WITH ANY KIND OF VIOLENCE REGARDLESS OF ANY INTERNATIONAL LAW AND [ INAUDIBLE ] >> IT REALLY IS FASCINATING.

IT'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT STORIES IN THE WORLD.

PROFESSOR OMER BARTOV, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ISRAEL, WHAT WENT WRONG .

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DUE TO MEET CHINA'S XI JINPING IN BEIJING THIS WEEK.

IT'S THE FIRST VISIT BY A U. S. PRESIDENT IN NEARLY A DECADE.

FOR THE WORLD'S TWO LARGEST ECONOMIES AND MILITARIES, TRADE WILL LIKELY BE HIGH ON THE AGENDA.

AFTER THEIR INTENSE TARIFF WAR LAST YEAR, WHICH ENDED IN A TRUCE, JOURNALIST BOB DAVIS HAS BEEN KEEPING A CLOSE EYE AND HE JOINS HARI SRINIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHAT A SMALL TOWN'S RECOVERY FROM THE IMPACTS OF CHINESE IMPORTS REVEALS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

BOB DAVIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING U. S. AND CHINA SORT OF ECONOMIC RELATIONS AND FALLOUT FROM TRADE WARS FOR A LONG TIME.

YOUR RECENT PEACE TOOK YOU BACK TO HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA, A TOWN YOU FOLLOWED OVER TIME.

WE'VE SEEN THESE DIFFERENT CYCLE OF WORK.

TELL US A BIT ABOUT HICKORY AND WHAT DREW YOU TO IT OVER THE YEARS.

>> WELL MY FIRST VISIT WAS IN 2016, WHEN THE JOURNAL WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, AND EVERYBODY ELSE, THE TRUMP PHENOMENON, AND PART OF IT CLEARLY WAS, YOU KNOW, POPULIST REVOLT OR REBELLION, AND CHINA PLAYED A BIG PART OF THAT.

SO WE WERE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO SET A STORY AND HICKORY JUST WAS LINED UP TO BE A PERFECT CANDIDATE, JOURNALISTICALLY SPEAKING.

IT WAS A SMALL CITY, 30,000 PEOPLE OR SO, IN THE SOUTHEAST, WHICH WAS WHERE THE IMPACT OF CHINA WAS FELT ENORMOUSLY.

THEY TENDED TO BE SMALL CITIES IN THE SOUTHEAST AND THE MIDWEST THAT HAD A SINGLE INDUSTRY, AND HICKORY'S INDUSTRY WAS THE FURNITURE INDUSTRY.

IT WAS AT ONE TIME KIND OF THE FURNITURE CAPITAL OF THE U. S. .

>> SO HOW IS IT DIFFERENT TODAY?

>> BACK THEN, WE WERE LOOKING, AS I SAID, FOR THE IMPACT OF CHINA.

WHAT WAS TRULY INTERESTING TO ME, AND THESE PEOPLE HAD WORKED IN THE FURNITURE FACTORIES FOR YEARS AND YEARS, AND MANY OF THEM HAD COME FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY TO WORK IN HICKORY OVER WHAT WERE CALLED THE HILLBILLY HIGHWAYS, THE MAIN HIGHWAYS FROM TENNESSEE, WEST VIRGINIA, AND SO ON, AND LOOKED LIKE REALLY GOOD JOBS, AND THEY WERE REALLY GOOD JOBS .

IN HICKORY, IN 2000 OR SO, THE MEDIAN INCOME WAS HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.

THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE WAS LOWER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.

BUT AFTER CHINA JOINED THE WTO IN 2001, THE IMPACT WAS ENORMOUS AND IMMEDIATE, AND UNEMPLOYMENT SHOT UP.

PEOPLE WERE LAID OFF CONSTANTLY.

FURNITURE FACTORIES WERE CLOSING LEFT AND RIGHT.

AND THE INTERESTING THING WAS I GO AND I TALK TO WORKERS THERE, AND I'D SAY, SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED, AND IF I ASKED THEM SPECIFICALLY A QUESTION ABOUT CHINA, THEY WOULD GO OFF ON CHINA.

BUT MAINLY WHAT IT WAS, WITHOUT ASKING, IF I WOULD JUST ASK IN AN OPEN-ENDED WAY, THE FIRST THING WOULD SAY IS THEY BLAME THEIR BOSSES.

THEY BLAME THEIR BOSSES FOR SELLING OUT, SELLING OUT TO THE CHINESE.

THEY COULD UNDERSTAND WHY CHINA WOULD COME IN AND SELL BUT IT WAS THEIR BOSSES THAT THEY BLAMED AND IT WAS A VERY --IT WAS THE KIND OF THING THAT DONALD TRUMP AND ALSO BERNIE SANDERS PICKED UP ON.

>> REALLY THE ECONOMIC FRUSTRATION TRANSLATED INTO POLITICAL IDENTITY.

>> YES, DEFINITELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

>> IN YOUR RECENT PIECE YOU WROTE THE TOWN IS MAKING A COMEBACK, THE JOBS ARE RETURNING AND INCOMES ARE RISING BUT THE REASONS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MR.

TRUMP AND HIS SIGNATURE POLICIES.

EXPLAIN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AS I SAY, THIS WAS A SINGLE INDUSTRY TOWN, THE FURNITURE INDUSTRY.

THE FURNITURE INDUSTRY FIGURED OUT A WAY TO SURVIVE WITH CHINA BUT IN A MUCH, MUCH REDUCED LEVEL.

I THINK THE EMPLOYMENT AND FURNITURE THERE IS MAYBE A THIRD OF WHAT IT USED TO BE BUT AGAIN, IT STILL EXISTS SO THE JOBS AREN'T COMING BACK IN THE FURNITURE INDUSTRY.

WHAT HAPPENED IN GENERAL WAS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE FURNITURE FACTORIES TENDED TO STAY AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS ELSEWHERE IN THE COUNTRY, AND THEY HAVE FAMILY CONNECTIONS THERE AND ALL OF THAT.

ESSENTIALLY COME A THEY GOT OLDER .

A LOT OF THEM, A FAIR PERCENTAGE OF THEM WENT ON DISABILITY BECAUSE THEY DID A LOT OF FACTORY WORK AND MIGHT HAVE WRENCHED THEIR BACKS OR WHATEVER BUT THEY WENT ON SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY.

FEDERAL MONEY COMES INTO THE TOWN AND THAT CREATES A DEMAND FOR SERVICES FOR OLDER PEOPLE.

SO HEALTHCARE IN PARTICULAR.

BUT OTHER SERVICES, AS WELL.

SO THE AREA IS DEFINITELY STAGING A RECOVERY, NO DOUBT.

JOBS THERE ARE INCREASING.

UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS LOWER BUT THEY AREN'T JOBS IN GENERAL, IN MANUFACTURING.

THEY'RE JOBS IN SERVICES AND MANY OF THOSE JOBS ARE FILLED BY IMMIGRANTS OR THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVED IN HICKORY BUT WERE TOO YOUNG, IN THE EARLY 2000'S, TO GET A JOB.

>> SO IF THEY'RE NOT THE SAME TYPE OF JOBS, ARE THEY PAYING THE SAME, AND IS IT PHYSICAL LABOR?

IS THAT WHY THERE ARE DIFFERENT SORT OF DEMOGRAPHICS THAT ARE SIGNING UP?

>> THE SERVICE JOBS IN GENERAL TEND TO PAY LESS THAN THE MANUFACTURING JOBS.

SOME SERVICE JOBS OF COURSE, I DON'T KNOW, A DENTAL ASSISTANT YOU MAKE CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN MOST FACTORY WORKERS DO YOU KNOW, A HOME HEALTH AIDE OR SOMETHING ARE NOT HIGHLY PAID JOBS AND THE PEOPLE AGAIN WHO TEND TO GRAVITATE TO THOSE JOBS ARE IMMIGRANTS OR THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACTORY JOBS THEMSELVES, EVEN THEY ALSO RELY MUCH, MUCH MORE ON IMMIGRATION AND THAT, GOSH, IN 1990 OR SO THERE WERE HARDLY ANYBODY WHO WAS FOREIGN-BORN IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD AND NOW, IT USED TO BE LESS THAN 1%, NOW IT'S 10% OF THE POPULATION IS FOREIGN-BORN.

THAT'S MUCH LOWER THAN NATIONAL AVERAGE BUT A SUBSTANTIAL, ENORMOUS INCREASE FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE, AND THE PEOPLE WHO WENT INTO MANUFACTURING NOW TEND TO BE THE SAME SORT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE AGAIN, IF YOU GREW UP IN HICKORY AND YOUR FATHER WAS LAID OFF, AND YOUR UNCLE WAS LAID OFF, AND YOUR MOTHER WAS LAID OFF, THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS TO GO INTO MANUFACTURING.

SOME DO, OF COURSE, BUT IT TENDS TO BE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF HISTORY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU ALWAYS HEAR WHEN THESE SORTS OF CHANGES ARE COMING IS THAT THERE WILL BE EFFORTS TO RETRAIN, THAT FACTORY WORKERS WILL BE ABLE TO GET NEW JOBS, DIFFERENT JOBS.

CONSIDERING THAT YOU'VE WATCHED THAT OVER THE LAST DECADES, IS THAT HAPPENING?

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

AGAIN, THIS IS AN EARLY VISIT, SO I WILL BE TALKING TO THE WORKERS WHO HAVE BEEN LAID OFF TIME AND AGAIN AND THERE WAS AT THAT TIME A PROGRAM CALLED TRADE ADJUSTMENT ASSISTANCE.

IT'S BASICALLY MONEY, ENOUGH MONEY TO GO TO COMMUNITY COLLEGE, AND THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE THERE IS VERY GOOD, IN TERMS OF RETRAINING WORKERS FOR ANY NUMBER OF JOBS.

SO I'D ASK PEOPLE, HOW DID THAT WORK OUT FOR YOU, AND THIS WOULD BE, THEY'RE TALKING AROUND 2006-2007.

SO THE FIRST THING IS THESE OFTEN ARE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO A LOT OF THEM GOT SCARED OFF HERE, PARTICULARLY WITH THE MATH THAT YOU HAD TO LEARN.

SO THAT WAS ONE.

THEN AGAIN, IT'S 2006-2007 AND THEY THINK TO THEMSELVES, WHAT ARE THE BOOMING INDUSTRIES?

HOUSE CONSTRUCTION.

HOUSING WAS GIGANTIC AT THAT TIME, SO THEY TRAINED THEMSELVES ON HOUSING AND THEN THE HOUSING MARKET COLLAPSED, SO IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO DO AND THE U. S. IS FRANKLY TERRIBLE AT IT.

SOME OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE GOOD AT RETRAINING BUT THE U. S. HAS NEVER PUT ENOUGH MONEY INTO IT AND NEVER FIGURED OUT HOW TO GIVE PEOPLE THE KINDS OF SKILLS THAT THEY REALLY NEED.

>> CURRENTLY THE PRESIDENT TALKS A LOT ABOUT HOW IMPOSING TARIFFS ON CHINA, TAKING A HARD LINE AGAINST CHINA WILL BRING BACK AMERICAN MANUFACTURING.

TREASURY SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT SAID THAT THEY'RE INTENDING TO REVITALIZE THE U. S. INDUSTRY AND THAT FACTORIES ARE GOING TO BE BREAKING GROUND.

IS THAT HAPPENING IN HICKORY?

>> THERE'S A 25% TARIFF ON FURNITURE FROM ANYWHERE, ANYWHERE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY, RIGHT?

SO THAT'S AN INCENTIVE, CERTAINLY INCENTIVE TO MOVE TO THE U. S. AND GET UNDER THAT TERRACE UMBRELLA.

BUT FOR THE LOCAL SURVIVING FURNITURE COMPANIES, IT HASN'T REALLY BEEN A PLUS AT ALL.

WHAT THEY WILL SAY TO ME IS THAT FIRST OF ALL, THERE TERRACE BILL HAS GONE UP ENORMOUSLY.

THESE ARE VERY LOW MARGIN TYPE OF BUSINESSES, 5% BEFORE TAXES IS CONSIDERED A GOOD YEAR, AND THEN THE WAY THESE FURNITURE COMPANIES IN GENERAL ADJUSTED TO CHINA WAS TO MOVE INTO NICHE MARKETS THAT THE CHINESE CAN'T SUPPLY SO, YOU KNOW, AN EXPENSIVE PIECE OF FURNITURE WITH 100 DIFFERENT CHOICES, SMALL PRODUCTION RUNS.

SO IT'S ONE PARTICULAR COMPANY CALLED CENTURY FURNITURE, MAKES $7000 SOFAS.

THEY THOUGHT THE 5% TARIFF IS NOT GOING TO SCARE AWAY THEIR CUSTOMERS BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY SELL THROUGH FURNITURE RETAILERS A LOT, A LOT OF WHAT THEY SELL, AND THOSE RETAILERS RELY ON SALES OF $1000 COUCHES.

AND FOR PEOPLE BUYING THOSE KIND OF COUCHES, 25% MEANS A BIG DEAL, SO THEY'RE WORRIED THAT THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE GOING TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS AND THAT WOULD HURT THEM MUCH MORE THAN ANY ADVANTAGE THAT THEY MIGHT GET FROM PROTECTION FROM --BY THE TARIFF.

>> A LOT OF PARTS THAT GO INTO THE SOFAS, SOME OF THOSE COME FROM OVERSEAS IN THE FIRST PLACE, RIGHT HE'LL >> YOU CAN GET A PIECE OF FURNITURE THAT'S AMERICAN-MADE BUT IT'S GOT METAL PARTS AND IT'S GOT A PART FROM THIS COUNTRY IN THAT COUNTRY.

SO IT'S ALSO HUNDREDS OF HOURS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, SO HOW MUCH DO WE OWE, AND NOW THERE ARE REFUNDS AND THIS PARTICULAR COMPANY AND OTHERS ALSO ARE APPLYING FOR REFUNDS.

BUT FIRST OF ALL, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY'RE GOING TO GET AND THEN YOU CAN PRESUME THAT RETAILERS ARE GOING TO ASK FOR A REFUND ALSO AND THE COMPANY SAYS TO ME, IT'S THE CUSTOMERS THAT REALLY SHOULD GET THE REFUNDS AND AREN'T THE RETAILERS GOING TO REALLY CALL YOU UP AND SAY, YOU KNOW I OWE YOU 50 BUCKS, I DOUBT IT.

SO THINGS ARE COMPLICATED EQUATION ALSO.

>> I WONDER IF THIS TRANSITION FROM FACTORY WORK TO HEALTHCARE IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL .

YOU GOT THIS SORT OF TSUNAMI, YOU'VE GOT IS AGING POPULATION THAT'S GOING TO NEED ALL KINDS OF SERVICES AND REGARDLESS OF WHERE YOU LIVE IN AMERICA, THERE ARE GOING TO BE NECESSARY JOBS IN THOSE MARKETS.

>> WELL IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.

WHEN YOU SEE THE UNEMPLOYMENT, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS IS WHY ARE THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATES SO LOW AND THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE, THE IRAN WAR AND OTHER THINGS, IS ONE OF THE REASONS IS HEALTHCARE IS EXPANDING ENORMOUSLY.

I MEAN IT IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION, IS AN ECONOMY THAT IS FOCUSED ENTIRELY ON TAKING CARE OF OLDER PEOPLE, LIKE AN ECONOMY THAT YOU REALLY WANT OR THAT YOU DEPEND ON, IT'S TOTALLY A LEGITIMATE QUESTION.

AND PLACES LIKE HICKORY ARE NOT --ARE UNLIKELY TO BE THE PLACES THAT WILL SPAWN NEW INDUSTRIES.

THEY'LL GET DATA CENTERS FROM A. I. AND OTHER DATA COMMUNICATIONS BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE WORKING ON A I. THOSE WILL BE, THEY MIGHT BE CHARLOTTE, NEARBY, PLACES WITH RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES TEND TO BE PLACES THAT WILL SPAWN NEW INDUSTRIES.

>> GIVEN THE KIND OF DIFFERENT VARIABLES THAT YOU ARE SAYING ARE NECESSARY FOR HEALTHY TRANSITIONS, LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE OF RESEARCH INFRASTRUCTURE, UNIVERSITY, RIGHT NOW WE SEE A LOT OF THESE UNIVERSITIES SUFFER CUTBACKS IN RESEARCH FUNDING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AN IMMIGRANT LABOR POOL OF POPULATION.

THERE IS TREPIDATION IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES ABOUT HOW I. C. E. IS GOING TO COME TO THEIR TOWN OR WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO AND HOW THEY'RE GOING TO DISRUPT THE EMPLOYERS, TALKING ABOUT THAT.

I WONDER IF THE POLICY PRESCRIPTIONS THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS PUTTING OUT, WILL OVER TIME, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THESE OTHER KINDS OF EFFECTS ON A PLACE LIKE HICKORY OR AN EVEN BIGGER PLACE WHERE THERE ARE MORE OF THESE POSSIBILITIES FOR SORT OF THESE GREEN SHOOTS BUT SOME OF THESE POLICIES ARE STOPPING.

>> WELL I THINK THE RESEARCH QUESTION IS THE BIGGEST SELF- INFLICTED WOUND.

IT'S FRANKLY CRAZY, YOU KNOW, THAT THE UNITED STATES IS A LEADER IN ANY NUMBER OF TECHNOLOGIES, WHICH CAN LEAD TO NEW INDUSTRIES AND THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, BEATING UP ON THESE UNIVERSITIES BECAUSE OF ISSUES ABOUT DIVERSITY AND EQUITY AND SO ON, WHEN CLEARLY THAT'S NOT THE RESEARCH PART OF THOSE UNIVERSITIES, IS JUST FRANKLY CRAZY, YOU KNOW, AND WILL REALLY HURT THE UNITED STATES IF IT CONTINUES.

ON THE IMMIGRATION QUESTION, IT WAS INTERESTING.

I HAPPENED TO BE IN HICKORY, I DON'T KNOW, A WEEK OR SO AFTER BORDER PATROL WAS THERE FOR ONE DAY.

THEY WOULD STOP IN A MEXICAN RESTAURANT OR WHATEVER AND JUST THAT ONE DAY SEND --I'M HESITANT TO USE THE WORD TERROR BUT THAT'S KIND OF THE WAY PEOPLE FELT.

THEY WERE REALLY, REALLY FRIGHTENED AND YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE CITIZENS STARTED CARRYING PASSPORTS.

PEOPLE STARTED CARRYING PAPERS.

THE LOCAL HISPANIC AID GROUP, YOU KNOW, STARTED MAKING DELIVERIES BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE AFRAID TO COME TO THE FOOD PANTRIES AND THAT WAS FOR ONE DAY, ONE DAY, AND THESE FACTORIES DIDN'T DEPEND ON A SUPPLY OF WORKERS.

AND YES I THINK IT WILL WIND UP HURTING LACES OF THAT SORT.

>> WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ON THE EVE OF A MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND CHINA'S XI JINPING AND WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WOULD HELP A PLACE LIKE HICKORY, AND ARE THOSE THINGS GOING TO BE ON THE AGENDA, SO TO SPEAK?

IS THAT WHERE AMERICA IS THINKING?

>> THE IMPORT IMPACT FROM CHINA HAS KIND OF WASHED OVER THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THE UNITED STATES TRADE REPRESENTATIVES, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, LEGITIMATELY COMPLAIN ABOUT IS THE CHINESE MODEL, IT'S AN INTERESTING MODEL.

IT IS, ON THE ONE HAND, UNBELIEVABLY COMPETITIVE.

LIKE IN THE EV AREA, HUNDREDS OF COMPANIES COMPETING, AND THEY GET REALLY GOOD AT IT.

YOU KNOW, QUITE INNOVATIVE.

THERE FACTORIES ARE VERY, VERY MODERN.

BUT WHAT KEEPS THE SYSTEM GOING ARE ENORMOUS SUBSIDIES.

IN A CAPITALIST SYSTEM, TOTALLY CAPITALIST SYSTEM, YOU KNOW YOU'D HAVE --YOU START WITH 50 COMPANIES, YOU WIND UP WITH THREE, MAKING CARS, AND THEIR WHAT HAPPENS IS COMPANIES STAY IN BUSINESS ALL THE TIME SO THE RESULT IS THEY PRODUCE VERY GOOD PRODUCTS BUT AT VERY, VERY CHEAP PRICES AND AT MONEY- LOSING PRICES, AND THOSE PRODUCTS THAT ARE UNPROFITABLE AT HOME GET EXPORTED OVERSEAS, AND EVEN IF THEY MAY LOSE A LITTLE MONEY OVERSEAS, IT ADDUCES, YOU KNOW, THE PRODUCTION COST PER UNIT, AND ALSO THEY TEND TO DO BETTER.

EVEN THE PRICES THAT LOCAL COMPETITORS MIGHT COMPLAIN ABOUT, THEY MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT PROFITABLE FOR THESE COMPANIES.

SO IT HAS LONG BEEN AN URGING OF THE UNITED STATES FOR CHINA TO SHIFT ITS ECONOMIC MODEL SO THAT IT DEPENDS LESS ON EXPORTS AND MORE ON FILLING DEMAND FOR THE 1.

4 BILLION PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE.

SO IT HASN'T HELPED SO FAR.

I MEAN CHINA HAS RESISTED ALL THOSE COMPLAINTS AND FEELS THAT, YEAH, WE'RE DOING REALLY WELL WITH THE SYSTEM WE HAVE.

SO THAT COULD BE ON THE AGENDA BUT I THINK THE TRUMP TEAM HAS LARGELY GIVEN UP ON THAT AND IS LOOKING FOR A WAY TO INSTEAD COME TO SOME AGREEMENT THAT WE ONLY SHIP CERTAIN PRODUCTS AT A CERTAIN VOLUME AND WILL SHIP CERTAIN PRODUCTS AT A CERTAIN VOLUME.

WILL THAT HELP HICKORY?

I DON'T HONESTLY KNOW.

MAYBE A LITTLE BIT, BUT IT ALSO HAS ALL THE DOWNSIDES OF PROTECTIONISM, TOO, WHICH THE MAIN ONE IS YOU REDUCE COMPETITION AND INNOVATION.

SO I'M NOT SURE THAT WHAT WILL COME OUT OF THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS SUMMIT WILL HAVE MUCH EFFECT ON AVERAGE AMERICANS.

I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE ON US TO DEVELOP THE PROGRAMS AND POLICIES OF OUR OWN THAT WILL HELP THE UNITED STATES.

>> JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR BOB DAVIS, THE BOOK THAT HE WROTE ABOUT THIS WAS SUPERPOWER SHOWDOWN.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> A HUGELY IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP THERE.

AND FINALLY, THE BATHTUB TELEVISION AWARDS TO LACE HERE IN LONDON OVER THE WEEKEND AND ONE OF THE BIG WINNERS WAS THE HARROWING DOCUMENTARY, GAZA -- DOCTORS UNDER ATTACK.

BUT THE DOC IS GRABBING HEADLINES FOR OTHER REASONS ON ITS ROUGH ROAD TO THE BATHTUB PODIUM BECAUSE BRITAIN'S BIGGEST BROADCASTER, THE BBC, HAD SHELVED IT IN THIS HIGHLY CHARGED ATMOSPHERE SINCE OCTOBER 7th, FOR IT FOUND A SECOND CHANCE AT THE COUNTRY'S CHANNEL 4 STATION.

NOW IN THEIR ACCEPTANCE SPEECHES, ON THE BBC NO LESS, JOURNALISTS ROMITO AND OF I AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER BEEN THE PAIR HAD THIS TO SAY.

>> THESE ARE THE FINDINGS OF OUR INVESTIGATION, THAT THE BBC PAID FOR BUT REFUSED TO SHOW, BUT WE REFUSE TO BE SILENCED AND CENSORED.

>> JUST A QUESTION TO THE BBC, GIVEN THAT YOU DROPPED OUR FILM, WILL YOU DROP US FROM THE BAFTAS SCREENING LATER TONIGHT?

THANK YOU, BYE.

>> THE BBC CLEARLY THEN DIDN'T DROP THE SPEECH AND FOR EXPOSURE, THEN THE PAIR IS MY BROTHER-IN-LAW, THE FORMER HEAD OF CHANNEL 4 NEWS.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.