>> HOMICIDE RATES IN THE U. S. ARE AT AN ALL TIME LOW BUT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE KILLINGS HAVE STAYED HIGH.

THESE ARE PREDICTABLE AND PREVENTIBLE.

FOLLOWING THE KILLING OF HER SISTER-IN- LAW AND NIECES, SHE'S SPENT THE LAST THREE DECADES ADVOCATES FOR MORE PROTECTIONS AGAINST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SPEAKS ABOUT WHAT POLICY MAKERS CAN DO TO INTERVENE.

WARNING, THIS CONTAINS TOPICS LIKE RAPE THAT COULD BE DISTURBING FOR VIEWERS.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S A DIFFICULT SUBJECT BUT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF VERY DIFFICULT STORIES IN THE NEWS IN RECENT WEEKS AND MONTHS OF INDIVIDUALS KILLING A SPOUSE, IN SOME CASES KILLING THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY.

AND JUST TO START OUR CONVERSATION OFF, ONE OF THE REASONS YOU AS A SCHOLAR, RESEARCHER AND PRACTITIONER ARE INTERESTED IS YOU'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FAMILY.

DO YOU MIND TELLING US WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I'VE HAD THIS EXPERIENCE IN MY FAMILY.

THE WAY YOU MENTIONED WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS SOMETHING I ALWAYS WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

.

WHEN IT DID HAPPEN IN OUR FAMILY, MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS WE'RE THAT FAMILY NOW.

THERE'S SUCH STIGMA.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT AND HEAR ABOUT.

IN MY FAMILY SITUATION, MY SISTER-IN-LAW LAURA HAD BEEN MARRIED TO HER HUSBAND FOR A WHILE.

THEY HAD TWO CHILDREN TOGETHER.

WE COULD TELL THERE WAS A LOT OF CONTROL, SOME EMOTIONAL AND VERBALLY VIOLENT LANGUAGE AND BEHAVIORS THAT WERE TROUBLESOME.

LAURA WAS FINALLY ABLE TO SEE THOSE THINGS AND UNDERSTAND THEM.

WHAT WE KNOW NOW FROM HER JOURNALS, SHE WAS ALREADY DEALING WITH A GREAT FEAR OF BEING KILLED.

WE HELPED HER MOVE OUT OF HER HOME IN SEATTLE AND SHE AND HER TWO DAUGHTERS MOVED TO OREGON NEAR US TO LIVE WITH MY MOTHER-IN-LAW.

AND THINGS WERE GOING PRETTY WELL UNTIL HE BROKE INTO THE HOUSE AND RAPED HER ONE DAY WHEN THE GIRLS AND MY MOTHER-IN-LAW WERE WITH ME.

THAT'S WHAT RESULTED IN THE PREGNANCY THAT BROUGHT US MY YOUNGEST NIECE, APRIL.

BEFORE THEY WERE KILLED, I HOSTED A BACKPACK PARTY BECAUSE IT WAS FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL.

SHE WAS SO EXCITED TO HAVE THIS NEW START.

BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE, WE HAD HELPED LAURA GET A RESTRAINING ORDER, A HARD-FOUGHT LEGAL PROCESS.

BUT THAT MORNING, ANGRY OVER MISSING THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT OF HER FIRST DAY AT KINDERGARTEN, WAS ABLE TO PURCHASE A DONE, SHOT INTO THE HOME WITH A GUN, PUSHING THEM INTO THE FRONT YARD AND HE SHOT THEM AND KILLED THEM ALL.

MY MOTHER-IN-LAW HAD ONE OF THE GIRLS STANDING WITH HER AND WAS SHOT.

HE DID NOT SHOOT HER I THINK TO KILL HER, PARTIALLY TO PUNISH HER IN HER ROLE OF LAURA LEAVING.

I HAD A 3-MONTH-OLD BABY, AND WE GOT OUR MOTHER-IN-LAW, AND WERE HER CAREGIVERS UNTIL THE END OF HER LIFE.

I THOUGHT IF THIS DOESN'T CHANGE EVERYTHING, WHAT WILL.

THIS IS IN '95 AND NOW WE KNOW THAT 70 WOMEN ON AVERAGE ARE KILLED IN A MONTH IN AMERICA BY INTIMATE PARTNERS AND GUNS ARE THE NUMBER ONE KILLER OF CHILDREN.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS, WE'RE IN A MOMENT THAT HOMICIDE RATES HAVE DECLINED AGAIN.

OVERALL RATES HAVE DECLINED BUT FAMILY AND INTIMATE PARTNER KILLINGS ACCOUNT FOR 21% OF ALL HOMICIDES, UP FROM 15% IN 2020.

AND THE ATTACKS IN WHICH SOMEONE KILLS FOUR OR MORE RELATIVES, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN YOUR FAMILY, HAVE ALREADY SURPASSED ALL OF LAST YEAR'S TOTAL AND THE YEAR IS HALFWAY THROUGH.

SEEMS WE'RE IN A STRANGE MOMENT.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU, BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE NOTICED THE NUMBERS YOURSELF.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON HERE?

>> AS A PERSON WHO HAS WORKED IN THE GUN PREVENTION MOVEMENT, WE'VE TAKEN SERIOUSLY THE ISSUE OF COMMUNITY VIOLENCE AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK AND WE'RE SEEN THE IMPACT.

WHEN WE PASS COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS AND LEGISLATORS HAVE THE WILL AND ABILITY TO ENFORCE THEM, VIOLENCE GOES DOWN.

FOR FAMILY VIOLENCE KILLINGS, THE ISSUES ARE DEEPLY PRIVATE AND IN THE HOME.

THINGS LIKE SUBSTANCE MISUSE, PRIOR ABUSE, FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC CONCERNS.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY HARD FOR PEOPLE TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT THIS COULD BE THEIR FAMILY.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS WE HEAR WITH GUN VIOLENCE IS PEOPLE WERE JUST IN THE WRONG PLACE AT WRONG TIME.

MY NIECES AND SISTER-IN-LAW WITH WERE IN THEIR GRANDMOTHER'S YARD.

THIS THESE ARE PREVENTIBLE DEATHS IF WE WORK HARD TO MAKE THEM SO.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER INSIGHTS YOU SHARED IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE TERRIBLE CRIMES, INCIDENTS, THINGS THAT HAPPENED AS IF IT'S OUT OF THE BLUE, TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE, WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED, AND I THINK ONE OF YOUR INSIGHTS FROM YOUR WORK IS ACTUALLY IT'S NOT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE COULD BE LOOKING TO?

PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS AREN'T THINKING ABOUT THAT THEY COULD BE AWARE OF?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY, WE NEED TO LISTEN MORE TO WOMEN.

THIS IS JUST A HUGE ISSUE.

TYPICALLY THERE ARE INDICATORS YOU CAN NOTICE LIKE COERCIVE CONTROL.

AND ALSO IF YOU LISTEN WELL, YOU CAN HEAR WOMEN'S FEAR AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT.

ONCE THERE'S BEEN A DISCLOSURE THAT A WOMAN FEELS AFRAID OR IF A WOMEN CONTINUES TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THEIR PARTNER HAS FIRE ARMS AND THAT CONCERNS THEM, IF PEOPLE AROUND THEM ARE WILLING TO FIND RESOURCES TO BE HELPFUL.

OTHER BIG THING, WHEN THERE IS MARRIAGE DIFFICULTY, SEPARATION, DIVORCE OR THE CONTROL SIGNS, TYPICALLY IF THERE IS A LARGE MOMENT HAPPENING IN THAT COUPLE --FOR INSTANCE, THEIR WEDDING ANNIVERSARY.

IN OUR STORY, SARAH'S FIRST DAY OF KINDERGARTEN.

A GRADUATION, ANY OF THE LARGE MOMENTS CAN PEAK AN ABUSER'S FEELING OF MISSING OUT.

AND IF THEY HAVE --ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE ACCESS TO A FIREARM, THAT'S AN INCREDIBLY IMPULSIVE AND EFFECTIVE METHOD FOR CARRYING OUT THEIR FRUSTRATION AND VIOLENCE.

>> YOU USED THE TERM "COERCIVE CONTROL," CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> IN THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE WORLD THERE'S A SHIFTING TO TALKING ABOUT COERCIVE CONTROL AS SMALL MICROAGGRESSIONS THAT HAPPEN IN A RELATIONSHIP AND A PARTNER BEGINS TO UNDERSTAND THEY'RE AT RISK IF THEY DIVERGE FROM WHAT THEIR PARTNER WANTS THEM TO DO, WHO THEY WANT THEM TO BE, TO BE AROUND.

THIS LEADS TO ISOLATION.

DAVE DIDN'T WANT LAURA HAVING CONTACT WITH US.

COULD BE CHOICES ABOUT NO LONGER GOING TO CHURCH OR FAMILY GROUPS OR SCHOOL SOCIALS.

ANYTHING THAT MAKES ONE PERSON IN THE RELATIONSHIP IN A ONE DOWN POSITION AND THE OTHER IN A ONE UP.

>> WHAT ARE OTHER WAYS THAT COERCIVE CONTROL CAN BE EXERCISED IF IT'S NOT JUST PHYSICAL VIOLENCE?

>> THERE CAN BE A WEAPONIZATION OF SUPPORT PEOPLE OF THE SPOUSE.

SO THE ABUSIVE SPOUSE CAN KIND OF MAKE THE -- THE SPOUSE WHO IS BEING CONTROLLED BELIEVE FOR INSTANCE THEIR FAMILY IS AGAINST THEM, A THERAPIST IS AGAINST THEM.

THEY REALLY DO SOLATE.

IT COULD LOOK LIKE VERBAL PUTDOWNS, REPUTATION COLLAPSE.

WHERE AN ABUSER WORKS TO PUT THE PERSON AT RISK'S REPUTATION IN QUESTION AND PEOPLE AROUND THEM SO THEN THEY NEED THE ABUSER MORE.

>> LIKE WHAT, YOU'RE CRAZY?

YOU'RE INCOMPETENT?

YOU SCREW EVERYTHING UP?

>> MY WIFE IS SO DUMB, MY WIFE HAS NO IDEA.

POSTS MAYBE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT PUT THEM DOWN.

UNFLATTERING POSTS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> YOU INDICATED YOU HAD HINTS IN THE FAMILY THAT YOUR SISTER-IN-LAW WAS -- THERE WAS SOMETHING NOT RIGHT IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

WHATEVER WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS, WERE THEY ILL AT EASE WITH THEIR DAD?

>> THEY DID.

THEY WERE VERY HESITANT TO BE WITH OTHERS, THEY WERE AFRAID, THEY TALKED ABOUT BEING FEARFUL OF THEIR SAFETY WHEN THEY HAD VISITS WITH DAD.

THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SUPERVISED VISITS BUT THEY TALKED A LOT ABOUT FEAR.

THEY WERE ALWAYS QUITE DISTRESSED AFTER VISITS WITH THEIR DAD AND ONE WAS ONLY 5 MONTHS OLD.

>> DID THE DAD SHOW SIGNS OF VIOLENT BEHAVIOR BEFORE?

REASON I ASK THAT, WHY HE WAS ALLOWED TO SEE THE KIDS AT ALL?

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE FRUSTRATIONS.

RESTRAINING ORDER IS A HARD-FOUGHT, HARD-WON LEGAL REQUIREMENT THAT WOMEN HAVE TO WORK HARD TO RECEIVE.

AND EVEN WITH THAT RESTRAINING ORDER IN PLACE, AFTER A VERY VIOLENT ACT, HE WAS STILL AWARDED VERY SHORT AND WITH ANOTHER PERSON PRESENT VISITATIONS.

THAT MADE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO US.

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE ISSUE IS BECAUSE WOMEN ARE STILL NOT PROTECTED.

>> THERE'S EVIDENCE HE COMMITTED VIOLENCE, BREAKING INTO THE HOUSE IS A VIOLENCE ACT TO COMMIT ANOTHER ACT OF VIOLENCE, RAPING HIS SEPARATED SPOUSE.

WHY WASN'T HE PROSECUTED FOR THAT?

>> THAT'S SOMETHING WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT LAURA, AGAIN, HAD BEEN, OVER TIME, VERY MUCH TAUGHT TO BELIEVE HER VOICE SHOULD BE QUESTIONED.

IT TOOK US A LONG TIME TO CONVINCE HER TO SEEK THE RESTRAINING ORDER.

WOMEN ARE FEARFUL TO BRING FORWARD WHAT IS GOING ON BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE AND COERCIVE CONTROL THAT LEADS THEM TO BELIEVE THEY ARE NOTHING AND HAVE NO POWER TO PROTECT THEIR CHILDREN >> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ACCESS TO GUNS.

THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT ACCESS TO A GUN DOES MAKE AN ABUSIVE PARTNER FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO KILL WOMEN.

85% OF INTIMATE PARTNER HOMICIDES, SUICIDES INVOLVE A FIREARM.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND GUN ACCESS?

>> WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH THE MOST MOST GUNS, MORE GUNS THAN PEOPLE PER CAPITA, AND DON'T HAVE GOOD GUN LAWS.

THAT EFFECTIVE MANNER OF CAUSING DEATH INCREASES THE CHANCES OF IT HAPPENING IN A SITUATION THAT'S ALREADY VOLATILE AND A PERSON CAN BE ANGRY.

HUNDREDS MORE WOMEN ARE THREATENED AND INJURED BUT NOT KILLED.

THIS IS WHY COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS WORK TO LOWER COMMUNITY VIOLENCE.

IF WE CAN PASS SPECIFIC COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS THAT WOULD LOWER THE CHANCE OF FAMILY HOMICIDES, THAT WOULD BE INCREDIBLE.

THERE'S AT LEAST FOUR WAYS TO DO THAT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> ONE WOULD BE EXTREME RISK PROTECTION ORDERS.

THIS IS WHEN AN ABUSED INDIVIDUAL KNOWS THAT THEIR PARTNER HAS A FIREARM AND FEELS CONCERNED, THEY CAN GO TO A JUDGE AND PETITION FOR THIS EXTREME PROTECTION ORDER WHICH THEN ALLOWS SOMEONE TO HELP THAT ABUSER RID THEMSELVES OF THEIR GUNS AND BE STORED UNTIL SAFETY CAN BE RE-ESTABLISHED.

THIS IS A VERY EFFECTIVE LAW.

ALSO UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, CHECKS FOR ALL GUN PURCHASES WOULD HELP.

MAKING SURE EVERY STATE HAS LAWS WHERE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MISDEMEANOR OR FELONY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CHARGES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE FIREARMS, AND THEN ANY FIREARMS THEY ALREADY HAVE ARE ACTUALLY TAKEN AND HELD.

THE FINAL LEGISLATION THAT WOULD BE VERY EFFECTIVE IS THE STORAGE OR CHILD ACCESS PROTECTION LAWS THAT MAKE SURE A FIREARM IS KEPT IN SOMETHING LIKE A BIOMETRIC SAFE.

EVEN THE SMALL ACTION OF HAVING TO PUT YOUR HAND ON THE SAFE TO OPEN IT COULD GIVE PEOPLE TIME TO FLEE OR GIVE THE PERSON CONTEMPLATING --THIS IS USUALLY A VERY --IT'S PLANNED BUT AT THE END TIME, IT'S ADRENALINE FUELLED, SOMEWHAT IMPULSIVE WHEN YOU PULL THAT TRIGGER.

THOSE LAWS COULD ALSO BE A HUGE HELP IN THIS SITUATION.

>> HOW WOULD HAVING TO GET A GUN OUT OF A SAFE KEEP SOMEBODY IN A RAGE --ON A RAGE TANTRUM, LIKE YOUR RELATIVE WAS, STOP HIM?

YOU'RE SAYING MAYBE THAT RAGE TANTRUM COULD PASS OR GIVE THE OTHER PARTY TIME TO FIGURE OUT AN EXIT STRATEGY.

>> I THINK ALL THE TIME ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE A SAFE IN HIS CAR TO GET THAT GUN OUT OF.

OR IF HE WOULD HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO THE FACT HE WAS LOOKING INTO THE EYES OF HIS 5-MONTH- OLD BABY, MAYBE HE COULD HAVE CHANGED HIS MIND.

BUT WHEN WE HAVE EASY ACCESS, AND NOTHING THAT INTERRUPTS THAT PROCESS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE INCREASED AMOUNTS OF DEATHS AND WHEN WE'RE NOT PROTECTING WOMEN IN THE WAYS I BELIEVE THEY DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED.

>> I KNOW THIS ISN'T THE EASIEST THING TO TALK ABOUT, BUT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE PERPETRATORS, WHY THEY DO THIS?

>> THIS IS A TRICKY ISSUE EVEN WITHOUT MY FAMILY.

FOR ME, I HAD TO COME TO A PLACE WHERE I COULD SAY DAVE DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND I CAN'T LIVE HATING HIM.

AND IT WAS EATING AT ME.

IT'S A VERY HARD PLACE TO BE.

HE WAS A HURT PERSON WHO HURT PEOPLE.

BUT NOW, WHAT I FIND MYSELF THINKING ABOUT MORE THAN EVEN THE PERPETRATOR OF THE VIOLENCE IS PEOPLE LIKE THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR FAMILY.

I THINK ABOUT THE RIPPLES OF TRAUMA THAT IN AMERICA PROBABLY NOW EVERY CITY IS LIVING WITH, THAT NO ONE IS REALLY TALKING ABOUT.

I DON'T KNOW IF DAVE'S PARENTS OR FAMILY EVER GOT ANY SUPPORT OR IF THEY JUST HAD TO LIVE IN SHAME AND FEAR.

THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE, UNTIL WE REALLY START ADDRESSING ALL OF THE CULTURAL AND FAMILY TRAUMA, WE'RE RAISING A WHOLE NEW GENERATION AT RISK OF DOING THE SAME EXACT THING.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, IF SOMEONE WERE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION AND WAS WORRIED ABOUT SOMEONE IN THEIR FAMILY AND THOUGHT I THINK SOMETHING IS NOT QUITE RIGHT AND I WANT TO BE HELPFUL HERE, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS YOU COULD OPEN UP THAT CONVERSATION?

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING THAT.

THE FIRST THING TO DO IS LOOK WITHIN YOUR STATE TO SEE IF YOU HAVE AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTION LAW OR THEY'RE SOMETIMES CALLED RED FLAG LAWS.

PEOPLE WITHIN EACH STATE CAN HELP A PERSON MOVE THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS.

IT'S QUICK, FULLY VETTED AND SAFE LEGAL PROCESS.

I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO SEEK OUT SOURCES LIKE BRADY, GUN SAFETY, NEW SAFETY ALLIANCE.

THEY HAVE RESOURCES FOR HOW WE BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF FEAR OF POTENTIAL DEATH AT THE HANDS OF YOUR PARTNER IN SUCH A WAY WITH THERAPISTS.

A LOT OF THERAPISTS AREN'T ALSO AWARE.

YOU CAN GATHER RESOURCES TO HELP EMPOWER THAT PERSON.

THE THING I WOULD SAY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN --BELIEVE WOMEN.

IF YOU HAVE A NIGGLING FEELING SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT, ASK QUESTIONS, COME WITH A FEW RESOURCES, LISTEN WELL, LISTEN OVER TIME UNTIL A WOMAN FEELS SAFE TO TELL YOU, THEN FIND THE RESOURCES IN YOUR COMMUNITY THAT WOULD HAVE A HELP.

>> DOREEN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW NEEDS HELP IN THE U. S. , CALL THE NATIONAL DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE, AROUND THE WORLD, U. N. WOMEN OR THE PIXEL PROJECT HAS A LIST OF RESOURCES FOR YOU.